Pulitzer Prize winner uncovers the biggest lie in U.S. history!
with David Zucchino
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Jermaine sits down with David Zucchino, Pulitzer Prize-winning author, to uncover the hidden narratives of American history. Zucchino exposes the white supremacist coup of 1898 and the media’s role in perpetuating systemic racism. Their discussion challenges us to confront uncomfortable truths and recognize the enduring impact of these buried stories.
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Summary
David Zucchino, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and author, discusses his book 'Wilmington's Lie: The Murderous Coup of 1898 and the Rise of White Supremacy.' He shares his experiences as a storyteller and journalist, highlighting the importance of telling stories through the eyes of everyday people affected by major events.
Zucchino reflects on his coverage of wars and conflicts around the world and the impact these experiences have had on him. He delves into the history of Wilmington, North Carolina, in the late 19th century, where a white supremacist coup led to the overthrow of the elected government and the suppression of black citizens.
Zucchino explores the themes of racism, voter suppression, and the role of the media in perpetuating white supremacist ideologies. He draws parallels between the events of 1898 and the present-day political climate, emphasizing the ongoing struggle against white supremacy and the importance of understanding and confronting this history.
The Story Behind 'Wilmington's Lie'
Exploring Wilmington, North Carolina, in 1898
David Zucchino takes us back to Wilmington, North Carolina, in the late 19th century, where a violent white supremacist coup led to the overthrow of the elected government and the brutal suppression of black citizens. This dark chapter in American history is brought to life through Zucchino's meticulous research and compelling storytelling.
Themes and Reflections
The Enduring Legacy of Racism and Voter Suppression
Zucchino explores the themes of racism and voter suppression, drawing stark parallels between the events of 1898 and today's political climate. He emphasizes the importance of understanding and confronting this history to better address the ongoing struggle against white supremacy.
The Role of the Media in Perpetuating Ideologies
In this episode, Zucchino reflects on the significant role the media played in shaping public opinion during the Wilmington coup and its continued impact on perpetuating white supremacist ideologies. He highlights the responsibility of journalists to report truthfully and give voice to those often overlooked.
Personal Narratives: The Heart of Storytelling
Giving Voice to the Overlooked
Zucchino discusses his experiences covering wars and conflicts around the world, emphasizing the importance of telling stories through the eyes of everyday people affected by these major events. He believes that personal narratives are a powerful way to convey the profound impact of historical events on individuals and communities.
Takeaways
Power of Personal Narratives: Telling stories through personal perspectives powerfully conveys the impact of major events.
Journalistic Responsibility: Journalists must report on the experiences of those affected by war and conflict, giving voice to the overlooked.
Legacy of Wilmington Coup: The 1898 Wilmington coup highlights the enduring legacy of white supremacy and voter suppression in the U.S.
Media's Role: The media significantly shapes public opinion and can perpetuate harmful ideologies, underscoring the need for responsible journalism.
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Jermaine (00:01.442)
David Zucchino, you are here on the Humanity Archive podcast and you're a master storyteller, you're a Pulitzer Prize winner. You, to me, looking at your work, you bring a relentless pursuit of truth to journalism. You have a career that spans the globe. You've covered wars and conflicts and write for the New York Times. You teach journalism. You've crafted narratives that not only inform but also deeply move readers and your story really moved me.
And you know, you wrote this book, Wilmington's Lie, the Murderous Coop of 1898, and it came out in 2020 and it really blew me away. And for those listening, you haven't really read a history book until you've read Wilmington's Lie. So David, it's an honor to have you here on the podcast and get into your mind, your mental work. Welcome to the show.
David Zucchino (00:53.151)
Thank you, Jermaine. It's great to be with you.
Jermaine (00:56.158)
So just getting into this discussion and before we really get into the book, I want to know with a Pulitzer Prize and a career that's seen you reporting in over 30 countries, you've witnessed the spectrum of human experiences. Could you share with us how those experiences have shaped you as a writer and a storyteller?
David Zucchino (01:19.771)
I love to tell stories, I love talking to people. The great thing about journalism is it's just a license to drop into people's lives and start asking questions and amazingly people will respond. I'm always stunned. I go around the world and I meet people usually on the worst day of their lives when there's been some tragedy and they open up. People have a need to tell their story. They want their story told. They want to be validated.
I want to be that person that tells their story. What I really like to do in storytelling and in journalism is to take large events, large important world events, and tell them through the eyes of people on the ground. Not through politicians, through military leaders, or through institutions, but to everyday people who are directly affected by events. I think that's a really powerful way to tell stories. It's very human.
And you can just delve into people's lives. And as I said, I'm amazed people will open up to you because they want their stories told even on the worst days after they've experienced terrible trauma. There's this need for their story to be told.
Jermaine (02:34.022)
Absolutely. And I think that when we watch the news and we get stories, a lot of times it is from a level where it's top down, right? We're hearing about the facts, we're hearing numbers, but to really get into the lives of people, to get into their shoes, that's very important work and takes a certain amount of empathy too. Is this something that you've always been interested in? When did you find out that this is something that you wanted to do?
David Zucchino (03:00.643)
When I was in high school, a teacher suggested readings. And one of the readings she gave was a Hiroshima by John Hersey. And that was his account. He went in a year after the Hiroshima bombing and talked to the survivors and basically retold the story of the day from the moment the bomb hit Hiroshima through the lives of seven unrelated people who did not know each other.
But I thought it was an extremely powerful way to tell a story and I was really inspired by that. And from then on, I thought that is something I want to do. I wanted to become an international correspondent and it took a while. I worked at smaller papers and worked my way up. But that was my goal all along, just that need to tell people's stories.
Jermaine (03:49.214)
Yeah, reminds me of this Anais Nin quote. She said, we travel some of us forever to seek other states, to seek other lives and other souls. And that quote always struck a chord with me. It's kind of like you're peeling back the layers of the world's narrative, right? Through each journey, through each person you encounter. And being in journalism, you're observing and being a part of different realities. And
I think each story we dive into, each corner of the world we explore is not only a physical journey but it's an internal journey. We are unearthing these stories and we're reshaping our perspectives, we're challenging our beliefs and it's a reminder too of how interconnected we are. In understanding someone else's story it helps us understand our own. So I think that's fascinating work that you do. And I think that one thing I would like to know is...
in your journey as a journalist with the New York Times covering, you know, these wars and civil conflicts that you've covered. What have been some of the most impactful moments or stories that have really stuck with you over the years?
David Zucchino (05:00.223)
Oh, well, from Iraq and Afghanistan, it's just ordinary people caught up in war. Their lives just completely upended and changed forever. Telling those stories, I thought, really, really affected me. I still think about some of these people. I covered the uprising against Muammar Gaddafi in Libya. And I have just powerful memories of...
getting in with the Libyan rebels and these were just ordinary people. They were students and lawyers and shopkeepers and taxi drivers who just stopped everything they were doing and started the revolution and picked up weapons uh... and basically overthrew a dictator and being with them you just felt their energy. They had been suppressed for forty years uh... they were not allowed any internet. They were obviously not allowed any weapons. This is the first time they'd seen weapons and touched weapons.
And just this rage surging through these people and this sense of an opportunity to change their lives in big ways just was a powerful thing to see. And I spent weeks with these guys going to the front. They were fighting a modern army, just a bunch of guys in pickup trucks and taxis with guns. So that was just one of the most memorable things I've done. Going in Chechnya.
with the Chechen rebels who were fighting the Russian government and these wars go back to the 1840s. Being with those people fighting, I mean, it was difficult. A lot of the Chechens had committed these terrorist acts against Russian civilians, but I went out with just, again, ordinary people who had taken up guns as part of this guerrilla army. They basically were taking time off for work, you know, to go fight the Russians.
another example of just people getting swept up by events larger than themselves and giving me an opportunity to tell these larger stories through the lives of ordinary people.
Jermaine (07:05.61)
Wow. And I mean, I'll think about how does that impact you on a personal level and even overcoming some of the fears too? I mean, you have this drive to tell the story and, you know, to present people's truths to the world, but you're in war zones, right? I mean, I mean, how close are you to the combat or bullets whizzing over your head at certain points? Or are you able to kind of get in and get out? Like, what does that look like on the ground in a situation like that?
David Zucchino (07:31.607)
You have to be willing to get in there. You can't tell the story with a phone call. I mean, you can, but that's not the way I want to tell my story. I want to be right there with them and describing what it's like to be in war. Now I do have the luxury of coming in and coming out. I'm not there for weeks at a time like these guys are. So it's limited. But I do put myself in the middle of it and I go where they go.
During the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, I embedded with the US military many, many times. When you're embedded, you go where they go and you do what they do. You do get involved in combat and you get right in the middle of it. It's exhilarating and terrifying at the same time. I'm sitting there and you're getting attacked and I'm saying, why am I here? Why am I here? Just get me out. I'll never come back. Of course, I always come back, but I would find myself in those situations where I swear I'm not going to do this again because it is terrifying. It's very frightening.
Jermaine (08:27.518)
Now I'm just curious what that looks, I mean, are you kind of taking it all in your head as you're there? Are you kind of like jotting down notes like on the spot as you're there? There's probably a lot of filming going on as well as part of this experience.
David Zucchino (08:41.083)
I often traveled with a photographer, which was great because they're very good journalists themselves and know how to report, know how to ask questions. So that took the pressure off for me to have it documented with film or video. So I was able to concentrate on telling the story and I concentrated on individual people and what they were doing, what they were feeling and I tried to talk to them as things were happening and just pay attention and watch how they react, watch how things affect them.
Definitely taking notes and trying to remember everything as clearly as possible and you know after battles or after these These shelling attacks and I would get my thoughts together and start to write the outlines of a story right there while it's fresh Well, you know, it just happened minutes ago and while I have the people there to talk to you know to ask them You know, what were you thinking at this moment? What was your goal? I mean what motivated you a million questions?
And soldiers, again, they want their story told. They're out there, they're suffering, they're committed to a cause, and they really appreciate that. Many, many people thank me for telling their stories. They appreciate the fact that somebody is telling their story to the world. It really validates it.
Jermaine (09:52.394)
And it sounds to me that I'm sensing this journalistic integrity coming through because you're really focused a lot on the other person, what they have to say, what they felt. How do you handle when you have two conflicting narratives and keep that same integrity? You know, if you're getting both sides of an issue, what does that look like when you're when you're writing a story? I wonder.
David Zucchino (10:13.639)
It can be difficult and awkward. I'll give you one example. When I covered the invasion of Iraq, I went with the unit that crashed into Baghdad and into the war basically by taking the palaces and taking downtown. But they started going through Saddam Hussein's complex where the top leadership was and they came across almost 800 million dollars in cash.
Some of these guys couldn't resist it and they took the money and I knew it and I had to report it. And I knew these guys, I'd spent time with them. I really didn't want to ruin their lives, but it was my responsibility to tell the whole story, the good and the bad. So I did write about it and they got very upset. The commander got very upset with me and I said, listen, this is what I do and I mean it's not all, you know, great positive news. I'm going to tell everything and I did.
Jermaine (11:10.462)
And that's where that integrity comes in, even in the face of backlash, even in the face of anger or vitriol. I mean, that's where that integrity comes in. And yeah, that's a fascinating story. I can't imagine being in that position and just what that all looked like. And now I want to get into this fascinating book that you wrote. I have the book here, Wilmington's Live, Pulitzer Prize winning work. And so we're
We're gonna go back in time and you could tell this better than I, but you know, we're in Wilmington, North Carolina. North Carolina's largest city, if I recall, in the 1890s, majority black city, successful black Americans, politicians, only a few decades removed from chattel slavery. So for someone who has never heard of this event before, can you first give us some context of reconstruction and the backdrop?
of this city and what was happening in America before we get into the events of 1898 in Wilmington, when all this hell breaks loose.
David Zucchino (12:16.859)
Yeah, the first thing you need to know is that this coup in 1898 was the only armed overthrow of an elected government in US history. It's the only time it's happened and that's just incredibly significant. At the same time, this is a story that was covered up and distorted for years. I mean, the Wilmington's Lie refers to the lie that the white supremacists built around...
these events but let me go back and start with Wilmington in 1898. I mean after the Civil War when black Americans were freed from slavery a lot of them gravitated to Wilmington because there were so many jobs available there. It was a big port, one of the biggest ports in America. It was the last Confederate port to fall during the war and once Wilmington fell the war was essentially over.
And there were jobs, there was railroad terminus there, there were jobs there, there were jobs in the fields and in farm work, there were jobs in the industry with pine, turpentine and pitch, you know, in these pine forests. So this large middle class community built up by 1898 where you had most of the restaurants, for example, in Wilmington were owned by black men, a lot of the barbershops were.
You had black doctors, black lawyers, black funeral directors, black teachers. The city was 58% black at a time when very, very few, and I think almost no major cities in the South were majority black, but Wilmington was. And as a result of complicated political events, black...
voters had aligned themselves with white Republicans and back then the Republicans were the party of Lincoln and the Democrats were the party of white supremacy. And they formed something called Fusion and they took control through an election of Wilmington's government and immediately the white conservatives, just as they do today, cried out that the election was a fraud and that it was stolen.
Jermaine (14:05.388)
Mm-hmm.
David Zucchino (14:21.747)
But it did remain in power and white supremacists who had been in power from the beginning of Wilmington in the 1700s just were not going to let that stand because you had black men in positions of political power.
Three of the ten aldermen were black men. Ten of the 26 policemen were black men. They were black magistrates, which infuriated white conservatives because they had to go before a black magistrate. The postmaster was black, the superintendent of the streets, the treasurer, the county jailer, and the coroner. All these were black men. And this was highly unusual in the South. There really wasn't a comparable city throughout the South that
had black men in positions of authority, which just had never happened in the South before. I mean, you've got to remember, this is just two decades after Reconstruction. People still have family members, people still alive who were in slavery, and this was sort of the next generation. But black men had really created...
Jermaine (15:13.975)
Mm-hmm.
David Zucchino (15:28.147)
amazingly productive and successful lives. And the other unusual thing about Wilmington is that it was somewhat integrated in the neighborhoods. You did have working class blacks and whites living in the same neighborhood, which is extremely unusual for the South at that time, and even today. So Wilmington really, really stood out. And what put it on the map was this concentrated, concerted, planned coup by the white leadership.
Jermaine (15:45.745)
Mm-hmm.
David Zucchino (15:57.803)
by the white conservatives and white supremacists to take over Wilmington, to remove the government, and to find a way to keep black men from voting ever again from holding elected or appointed office. That was their clear goal. And they said this. They called themselves the white supremacy movement. That's what they called themselves. They printed a handbook, the white supremacist handbook. They were very, very open about what they planned to do. And they announced it.
to the world and of course this drew newspaper coverage from around the country to wellington because there was an election coming up in november and they had plotted to uh... build their coup right around the election they were going to steal the election which they did uh... they stuffed ballot boxes and they spent the summer sending out uh... vigilantes they called them red shirts and these were basically an outgrowth of the of the kkk and their job was to go through the
in fall of 1898 and to break into black homes at night and pull black men out and whip them and beat them and tell them they're going to come back and kill them if they registered to vote. So, it was really a strong campaign of intimidation to keep black men from voting and it succeeded very well and they stole the election in November of 1898 and then two days later they rose up and carried out this coup that they had been planning.
They sent their red shirts and other armed vigilantes out into the streets to kill black men They killed at least 60 black men that day They overthrew the government and installed themselves as mayor chief of police City councilmen all the jobs that black men had been Serving they threw them out They banished black and white leaders and drove More than 2,000 black people from their homes have left the city forever
and it became a white supremacist citadel. Today, Wilmington is 18% black. It was 56% black in 1898. And from that moment on, black citizens in North Carolina did not vote for at least another 60 years. Through poll taxes, literacy tests, GM Crow laws, and KKK intimidation, black people in North Carolina and throughout the South just did not vote after that.
David Zucchino (18:19.123)
In 1898, as I said, three of the ten city councilmen were black men, and another black man did not serve on the city council in Wilmington until 1972. So you see how effective this coup was. In 1898, there was exactly one black member of Congress in the Senate or the House in the entire country, and he was from North Carolina on a district outside Wilmington, and he was hounded by white conservatives and by white supremacists.
driven from office, he left the state of North Carolina, and from that moment on, no black person served in Congress from North Carolina until 1992, so it was almost 100 years late. So this was an incredibly effective.
Jermaine (18:59.392)
Hmm.
Jermaine (19:03.922)
Yeah, there was another case I've written about out of Florida where somebody was removed from office 1890 and then 1990 was the next time that a black representative Was was elected so you talk about history casting such a long shadow and just the utter Not only the devastation but the impact and how long this can last right and you talked about 18 from
David Zucchino (19:11.706)
Mm.
David Zucchino (19:22.013)
Yeah.
David Zucchino (19:29.995)
Yeah.
Jermaine (19:32.034)
from some 50%, right? I mean, driving people out, setting up this kind of citadel. And I think a lot about the Reconstruction era in the 1890s as this period in American history that often the whole Reconstruction era sometimes feels like a hidden chapter, you know, in American history. Like it's something that's not always talked about in textbooks and then you're in this era where people are kind of telling you like.
David Zucchino (19:50.464)
Yeah.
Jermaine (20:00.334)
there are white supremacist ideology. Do you think there's still a fear in talking about this? You're not even gonna find the word white supremacy in textbooks typically, you know, as this history is being told, why do you think that is? And why do you think there's such an aversion to telling these real stories in the national narrative? I mean, we have books like yours and a lot of books that come out of university presses and, you know, scholars are talking amongst themselves, but I don't think these conversations are happening so much in the general public and just really dealing
the harshness of this history.
David Zucchino (20:32.463)
Oh yeah, white supremacy runs through the history of this nation. I mean it.
that racism just permeates our society, from the moment of our founding. And it's not the only story, but it is a big part of the story. And it's a part of the story that really doesn't get told. History is told through whites, and it always has been. There are attempts now to correct that, but there are also reactions to it, like in Florida, where they're banning books and banning quote, critical race theory. But as far as white supremacists,
The term that journalism uses today is white nationalists. I think you're right that people are afraid to put that racism term out there. But they are white supremacists. It's clear from the language of Donald Trump and other conservatives that they believe there is one legitimate citizen in this country and he is a white Christian male. They're very clear about that. They're very clear about scapegoating.
Jermaine (21:12.375)
Mm-hmm.
David Zucchino (21:37.157)
demonizing anyone who is considered an outsider such as black citizens, Muslims, gays, anyone who doesn't fit that profile is an enemy. And it's interesting when Donald Trump was claiming the 2020 election was stolen, the very precincts and the very areas that he targeted and specified as being these hotbeds of...
Cheating.
and ballot stuffing and election theft within black neighborhoods of Philadelphia, Detroit, and elsewhere. He really, really specified it. And these aren't just the hug whistles. He's coming out and saying it. So again, this is something that has run through our history forever and it still runs through our history today through the attempts by white conservative men to deny the vote to black people. It's very clear. There's no doubt about it.
Jermaine (22:20.014)
Hmm.
David Zucchino (22:36.985)
still going on, you know, 120 some years after the Wilmington Coup.
Jermaine (22:42.686)
And yeah, I think one thing that's important to note, and I kind of wanted to get your perspective on this is, I think there's a tendency to look at these as isolated events. You know, you have a massacre here, a race riot there, sometimes they're called. And how do people connect the dots to know? And I think some of that is connecting the dots past the present of what's happening. But why do you think there's a tendency for people to want to isolate these events as though they're not connected and as though this wasn't?
and still is operating as a system, right, as a connected system with these racist ideals and the past affects the present in so many ways. Like, how do people kind of broaden their perspective to see that?
David Zucchino (23:26.507)
I think you just have to go back and just remember that the fear of the black vote, the fear that instilled in white supremacists, and they realized it very quickly that if black men were, and only black men could vote at that time, black men were allowed to vote, they would be voted out of office and they would lose their power and privilege. So everything they did was focused on denying the vote to black citizens.
through today, through these gerrymandering and voter ID schemes that Republicans are pushing in North Carolina and throughout the country. It is just relentless, their attempts to keep black people away from the polls. I mean, the gerrymandering is obvious, and the courts have called them out. In North Carolina, the white...
conservative male republicans in the state legislature passed a voter ID law a few years back and it was thrown out by the federal courts who said that they targeted African Americans with surgical precision. It was very clear they were targeting African Americans to try to keep them away from the polls through these voter ID laws. And the same thing with the various gerrymandering schemes they've come up with in North Carolina and other states where they pack and crack.
black districts and then pack all the black citizens into one district to dilute their vote. The white conservatives did that and were successful before 1898 in Wilmington. There were two gerrymandered black wards where they took all the black citizens and blacks were the majority then and packed them into two wards to dilute their voting power and were successful until the election in 1896 that brought this fusion government in.
Jermaine (25:18.378)
Wow. So I mean, it's the same tactics and you know, I've read a lot about this and you know, you see it still today. And it's just wild to me that the same tactics are being used. And it's just right in front of our face in such a way to where it's like, how could people still get away with this? You know, and that only is able to happen because of the system is connected. The system is entrenched.
I think that that's something that people need to realize. And I want to go back to a point about the beginning of the Wilmington coup, and that is that didn't this start over this accusation of white chivalry, black men attacking a white woman, this kind of old idea of black men is brutish and some thing that needed to be protected against. Can you talk about the beginnings of this coup and kind of
how this started and what that looked like in terms of like this same thing happening over and over again. This idea of white chivalry and protecting white women from black men as an impetus for violence, you know, as justification for violence against black community.
David Zucchino (26:24.459)
Right.
David Zucchino (26:30.846)
Right.
Yeah, there were a number of big lies that were told by the white supremacy campaign during 1898. One of them was that black men were not smart enough or sophisticated enough or capable enough to be trusted with positions in government. And also that they couldn't be trusted. They would steal money. They were corrupt. And the other big lie was what they called, and this was the term they used, was the black beast rapist.
They claimed that there was a rape epidemic in North Carolina with black men raping white women and I went back and looked at the crime figures and there was no such thing. It didn't happen. But they had a newspaper propaganda campaign in which they looked for any story of contact between a black man and a white woman and played it up into an attack. And they portrayed black men as constantly preying on white women.
this an existential threat because they realized that if black men were put into positions of power, if they were educated, if they served in public office, well they might become rivals for the affections of white women and they were not going to let that happen. So it was more than just depriving black men of the right to vote, it was eliminating black men as threats to, what they perceived as threats to white women.
In August of 1898, Alex Manley, who was the editor of the black readership paper, the Wilmington Record, read a speech from a woman in Georgia who told men of Georgia to lynch a thousand times a week if necessary to end this so-called epidemic of rapes. And so he responded with an editorial pointing out what everybody knew but which nobody said that most of the black men, almost all of the black men,
Jermaine (28:19.772)
Hmm.
David Zucchino (28:32.191)
who were lynched for allegedly raping white women were in fact their consensual lovers. And he also wrote that white men from generations had been raping black women with impunity. And this editorial just reverberated throughout the South and the white leadership in Wilmington realized they had now hit on an issue where they could really galvanize white male voters and work on their resentments and hatreds even more.
had copies of the editorial reprinted and distributed throughout the state and it got distributed through the South. And in fact the red shirts when this the day the editorial came out the red shirts this vigilante KKK militia that was made up of white supremacists and run by the white supremacist leadership wanted to lynch Alexander Manley that day and to show you how premeditated this coup was the leadership said no that was too early we've got to wait till November and we can use this as an election issue and then I promise you we'll let you
lynch Alex Manley and burn down his paper. So they did wait. They did attempt to lynch Alex Manley. He escaped from Wilmington, but they did burn down the paper and that was the beginning of the day of the coup. That set off the coup, this rampage of murder and killing that lasted throughout the day.
Jermaine (29:40.974)
Hmm.
Jermaine (29:51.626)
Wow. And I'm really interested in like the resistance, right? And I know, excuse me, black people, you know, are outnumbered, but I have read, you know, the account of there was some resistance. Can you tell me what that looked like? I know there was maybe some black gun clubs going back into history. I mean, how, I mean, did black people fight back and did it just come down to a numbers game? You know, there was just too outnumbered. They couldn't, you know, muster that there's too many white people coming at them.
from one side to another, but can you tell me what that resistance looked like in that moment and just what the violence even looked like within the moment of the coup and when that actually happened?
David Zucchino (30:34.183)
Yeah, there was a history of armed black resistance in Wilmington. In 1868, the Klan rose up and tried to take over the city of Wilmington. This is three years after the war. A black man, a former slave named Abraham Galloway, organized a black militia. They didn't have weapons, but they had clubs. They just took any piece of wood and club that they could. When the Klan rose up...
This black militia fanned out through the city and intimidated the black and paid the KKK and drove them out of the city and they did not return until 1898 in the guise of red shirts. But by 1898, whites were arming themselves and the hardware stores, which is where you had to go to get a gun then, would only sell to white men. They would not sell guns to white men. So even though blacks had the numbers, it was 56% black.
Jermaine (31:23.822)
Bye.
David Zucchino (31:30.315)
But they had very few weapons. The only weapons they had available were weapons from the Civil War that this earlier generation of so-called colored soldiers who had fought in the war still had weapons. And there were a few shotguns and hunting rifles. But they really, really had very few weapons. And a few black men did rise up and try to resist. Three or four white men were shot that day and wounded. None of them were killed. So there was this limited resistance. But...
because the whites had been stockpiling weapons the whole summer. We're extremely heavily armed and well armed. And the black men just had so few weapons and were really defenseless. And almost all of the black men killed that day were unarmed, had no weapons. And most of them were just going back and forth to work. Weren't doing anything other than being black and walking down the street.
Jermaine (32:01.275)
Mm.
Jermaine (32:23.962)
Mm-hmm.
David Zucchino (32:24.331)
So again, there was a limited attempt at black resistance, but they were just overwhelmed.
Jermaine (32:30.962)
Yeah, that's very important to know. And you did talk about the higher black population. And I don't think a lot of people know the intricacies of it in terms of, there's so many nuances to the story as far as like when you think about what you can buy, what you can't buy and who's going to sell to you. And that also comes to protecting yourself, right? And I think that's a fascinating story when you talked about people who are just so fed up.
like they didn't even care, they just grabbed clubs or whatever they could find to drive out, you know, people who were oppressing them. And, but yeah, so that's definitely an interesting part of the story. And another thing that I thought about in terms of your research and writing and telling the story, were there any personal diaries or letters or firsthand accounts that may take us into this story a little bit further or deeper that might humanize the story more that really stood out to you?
David Zucchino (33:04.663)
Right.
Jermaine (33:31.138)
an individual or a perspective that you found in a first-hand account.
David Zucchino (33:35.615)
Yeah, this was an interesting situation. There was a lot of documentation on the white side because this white supremacy campaign was very open. They were very proud of it. After the coup and the massacre, there were letters and diaries and books and newspaper articles and magazine articles written by the white supremacists just celebrating their victory. So there was lots of stuff on the white side. There was less from the black side. As you can imagine, these people were beleaguered on the run.
Their men had been shot down in the streets, a newspaper had been burned. But there were accounts from black ministers and black lawyers that I found that were just fascinating, that told the story from the black point of view. The other interesting thing is the black press. Now, it would have been impossible for a black reporter to go to Wilmington at this time because he would have been murdered on site. But because...
more than two thousand black people fled Wilmington in the days and weeks after the coup and went to other cities, mostly in the south, the black newspapers there interviewed people and got their immediate contemporaneous accounts. And so that was really helpful in my research, getting these descriptions of what had happened only a few days after it had happened through these interviews in the black press. So between that and then the diaries and the books and the articles that black men had
had left behind, I got a pretty good understanding of what was happening in the black community and as I said, there was plenty on the white side since they were so open about it.
Jermaine (35:12.926)
Yeah, absolutely. Is there any account that you recall that really stands out to you from anyone or any story that you're just like, wow, like this perspective here is really gripping and just kind of adds a little different perspective. And I think that's interesting the point as far as how the media is used. And I want to come back to that. But as far as like just any story or anything you can remember.
David Zucchino (35:31.415)
Bye.
David Zucchino (35:38.483)
Yeah, there's a black lawyer, a prominent black lawyer named William Henderson, who had a successful black law practice, had a really nice home, lived there with his wife and three children. And on the day of the coup and the massacre, the night of it, he was visited home by this gang of redshirts who broke into the house and threatened him and his family and said he had 24 hours to leave town.
And then they did this to a lot of black leaders. They targeted black leaders. And it was called the banishment campaign that they had a name for. It was the banishment campaign and they had a list of people who were on it. And William Henderson was on it and he was given 24 hours to close down his law practice, to sell this house, to get on the train with his wife and kids through this howling mob of red shirts and whites screaming at him.
screaming at him and his wife and getting them on the train and they managed to get out of town safely and he started a really successful career in Indianapolis as a lawyer and civil rights leader. But he left behind a very detailed journal and his wife did as well. So through that I was really able to tell a very human and personal story. There was another man, Reverend William Kirk, who wrote a long account of trying to get his family out of Wilmington.
because he was also targeted because he was a prominent minister. And the story of him going through the swamps and being chased and getting on trains and getting his family out was just heart stopping. And it was a very good source for me because it was very detailed and it got into his head and his mind and what he was thinking and the fears that he felt for his family. Those are really two examples of strong stories that people left behind.
Jermaine (37:25.386)
Yeah, and I want to go back to the role of the media. And when we peel back the layers of American history, we see the media could be a massive machine of truth telling or a massive machine of propaganda. And the propaganda has been very glaring, especially when you think about cases like Wilmington. And, you know, these words that people print in newspapers can escalate to real life or death situations. So...
You know, in the context of your book, how critical would you say the media's influence was in staring the events of Wilmington and the coup?
David Zucchino (38:03.755)
It was central to the white supremacist efforts. They had a propaganda campaign through the newspapers, and one of the leaders of the whole coup attempt and the white supremacy movement was Josephus Daniels, the editor of the News and Observer in Raleigh, the biggest paper in the state. And they ran this campaign, as I mentioned earlier, against the Black Beast rapist and portraying black men in office as incapable and corrupt.
and overwhelmed and they just pounded on this theme throughout the summer and other white supremacist newspapers picked it up. There were three white supremacist newspapers in Wilmington and they just hammered this home and Josephus Daniels realized that almost 25% of white men, of white electorate was illiterate so he hired a political cartoonist to draw these just horrifying caricatures of black men as apes and beasts and monsters.
trying to, really chasing, they showed them with claws, chasing white, you know, white southern bells in these white dresses, being chased by these black men with these claws. I mean, these horrifically racist cartoons, but were incredibly affected in mobilizing, you know, the rage of white voters who had been told that these black men were illegitimate, they shouldn't have been in office, they should not be allowed to.
to hold public office and we need to drive them away and keep them from voting ever again. And that was the message through this propaganda effort. What was really interesting is the white northern press, which I had assumed might push back against this narrative that the whites were telling, but in fact they swallowed it whole.
when white newspapers from around the country, and this was such a big story, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Philadelphia Inquiry, the Chicago Tribune, all the big newspapers, the white papers of the day, sent their reporters down there. When they arrived in Wilmington at the train station, they were met by the white supremacist leadership and gave them cigars and whiskey and gave them places to stay. And they did what we today call embedded. They would take the reporters and take them out with the red shirts and fill them up with.
David Zucchino (40:14.963)
with the big lie that was being spread then that black men were stockpiling arms and were going to rise up during the election and kill white men, women and children, massacre them and take over the town. Which was a complete lie, as I said before, very few black men had guns but that was the story they spread and that was the story that was told to America by the white press. And they also spread the story.
that black men were ill-educated and ill-equipped to serve in office and were corrupt. They just spread this lie unquestionably and I was really surprised. I really thought someone in the Northern White press would actually tell the true story, but they just perpetuated the lie. They just enhanced it. So by the time of the massacre and the coup, there was very, very little sympathy in the country.
Jermaine (40:58.242)
Hmm.
David Zucchino (41:07.151)
for black men. There was a general agreement, yeah, well this had to be done. And that was the argument of the white supremacists. Well, we may have to kill some people, but we have got to stop what they called Negro domination. They said black men were taking over the country and we have to stop it. And that was the message that came from the white press.
Jermaine (41:27.05)
And I think about too, like the authoritarian nature of all this, because there's another newspaper with conflicting perspective couldn't exist, right? So it's not like people are getting their information from multiple sources and able to compare, contrast and critically think about the information they're getting to find the truth. These are one sources of information. They're all saying the same thing. So you can only imagine what this is doing to the minds of a, you know, just the average person.
David Zucchino (41:40.159)
Oh.
David Zucchino (41:53.224)
Yeah, the only other...
Jermaine (41:53.494)
You know, you grow up, you're white in the South, what other perspective do you have but this, right? Where else are you getting your information to, you know, conflict or control?
David Zucchino (42:00.399)
All you had was the black press, but in North Carolina or in Wilmington, in fact you had a very strong daily. It was very rare for black papers to be a daily, but the journal was a daily paper. Of course they burned it. They basically shut down the one source of true information that black people were able to get.
Jermaine (42:14.454)
Yeah.
Jermaine (42:23.058)
And how do you make a connection between what happened in Wilmington? And do you make a connection between 2020 and Wilmington? You know, and I think your book came out in a relevant time when that conversation was being had in terms of the election then.
David Zucchino (42:37.111)
All right.
David Zucchino (42:40.515)
Oh yeah, and in fact as I mentioned, in 1898 the white supremacy campaign said the election had been stolen in 1896, the election that put black people in power, and you see the same thing today of this lie, the big lie about the stolen election. The other parallel I see is this equating of vigilantism with patriotism.
that we see in the MAGA movement now. And we saw on January 6 that country, Trump telling his followers that they had to take the country back. And violence was the tool they used and they justified it, that violence is justified in taking back our country from these.
illegitimate people in eighteen ninety six it was the black population and today it's the coalition of black brown and white people uh... in the democratic party that's the enemy today back then it was the uh... black men in office this strain of white supremacy and white nationalism very much alive today uh... in the MAGA movement and the far right also the
of guns by white men and this happened back in 1898 when they would brag in the newspaper about how many guns they had collected about these armories that they had and how they were going to use the power of the gun to put black people in their place and to end negro domination. They were very clear about that and of course today you have the worshipping of guns through the NRA and the arming of this.
movement in the United States that's very strong the militia movement and the proud boys and people like that I mean the red shirts were essentially the proud boys of the day back in 1898 and they were heavily armed and brandished their weapons as tools of intimidation just as they do today.
Jermaine (44:44.322)
The parallels are uncanny, right? And if there's no other instances to let you know that the parallels are there and the past is present and a lot of the playbooks, people are studying history and using the same things to work 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 100 years ago to apply to today, because I think human emotions don't change, right? You're speaking to the same sentiments that people have, regional sentiments or racial sentiments.
David Zucchino (44:59.606)
Yeah.
Jermaine (45:14.174)
And, you know, it's just like you, some, oh, some ways you're shocked, or at least I'm shocked that this stuff still works. But if you have an understanding of human nature, then you could see, you know, populism and, and just the messaging that's being played, just tweaked and turned just a little bit, you know, to be updated for the 21st century. But it's essentially, you know, a lot of the same things that we saw back in Reconstruction and Wilmington, you know, back in the 70s, 80s, you know, all these things trickling into today.
David Zucchino (45:21.419)
Right.
David Zucchino (45:43.771)
Alright. Yeah, the theme that really comes through, through white supremacists in 1898 and the white supremacist nationalists today is that your country is being taken from you. You are the legitimate citizens of this country in 1898. It was white men and today it's white Christians. I mean that's very clear that they believe that this is a white Christian country and all these outsiders are threatening it.
And if we have to rise up and use violence to put it down, we will to quote, get our country back, to quote Donald Trump. And this is a very, very prevailing belief among white nationalists today. And that was what really motivated the whole January 6th insurrection.
Jermaine (46:31.114)
Absolutely. Well, David, I want to thank you so much for coming on. I really, again, enjoyed reading your book. I learned so much from reading your book. It's historical scholarship of the highest order, and it's heartbreaking. It's riveting. Everyone should read Wilmington's Lie. Your research, I don't think a lot of people often realize just the blood, sweat and tears that goes into writing a book like this and getting it right and making sure that you're.
having a diverse perspective and just bringing the truth to bear. And so I can only imagine the immense effort that you put into writing this. And yeah, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been informative, transformative, and thank you for sharing this pivotal work with the world.
David Zucchino (47:14.219)
Thank you, Jermaine. It was a real pleasure talking to you. I love your show. You really get into some penetrating questions and some great themes. So thank you. I appreciate it. Okay. Bye.
Jermaine (47:23.618)
Thank you.